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Post by Jembru on Oct 18, 2014 22:14:01 GMT
Does anyone know if there is a difference in the uses of 辞書 and 辞典? It seems that compilations of specific words tend be be called 辞典. My book of grade 2-4 kanji, my dictionary of English phrases for expressing feelings and opinions, and my all-Japanese usage dictionary, are all called 辞典. So when the collection of words, kanji or phrases is exhaustive/limited to specific areas, is 辞典 more approprate, while 辞書 is for an (attempted, since such a thing is impossible) compilation of the entire vocabulary of the language?
I'm asking this because I have a notebook that I keep vocabulary in and attempt to define the words as simply as possible in Japanese. I stopped using it once I started using anki, but intend to use it much more next year as it will help me to avoid English. If I write a word in my study notes and can't remember its meaning, rather than look it up on jisho.org, or bamboozle my brain with the definitions on kotobank, I can just flick through my hand-written dictionary for a simple definition (for example: '歌詞(かし)歌の言葉' vs '歌曲や歌謡曲・歌劇などの、節をつけて歌う言葉')
I just don't know what to call this book. It has a blank label on the cover waiting for my ink.. but I can't make up my mind. It used to just have 辞書 written on it before I covered it with stickers, but these days I don't feel that 辞書 is an appropriate name for what this is. A vocabulary list is 単語表 so maybe a whole notebook of vocabulary could be called a '単語帳'. Or would 手書きの辞典 be more appropriate? Any ideas? I used to have one of these books in primary school to keep my spellings in, so maybe this concept exists in Japan.
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Post by Bokusenou on Oct 19, 2014 3:16:19 GMT
Google "辞書 辞典 違い" without quotes and you'll get a bunch of answers. One mentions that 辞典 is used in names, e.g. 明鏡国語辞典 is the name of a certain dictionary, while 辞書 is used in speech, and while sentences like "Pass me the 辞典" aren't technically wrong, they're a bit odd-sounding. Another says that 辞典 is a sub-category of 辞書 used for word definitions. I just skimmed over the first few results, so you might want to look them up yourself to get more details.
Also, when I Googled it I got a bunch of pictures of notebooks filled with vocabulary words, so I think 単語帳 is right.^^
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Post by Jembru on Oct 19, 2014 10:52:00 GMT
See, that was my issue.. no one seemed to have a definitive answer. Like you, I just found a bunch of personal opinions. So I figured this one might be best answered from outside of the language itself. I'd made up the word 単語帳 but it was an intuitive guess I suppose, I mean, it wasn't just plucked out of the air. So if it seems to exist, I'm happy to go with that! Thanks for your help Rin!
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Post by chocopie on Oct 19, 2014 16:43:29 GMT
Jembru for similar words I usually use goo辞書's 類語 dictionary which gives 使い分け explanations. dictionary.goo.ne.jp/smp/leaf/thsrs/11973/m0u/辞書(じしょ)/辞典(じてん)/字引(じびき) [共通する意味]★言葉を集めて、ある基準にそって配列し、その表記、意味、用法などを解説した書物。 [英]a dictionary [使い方] 〔辞書〕▽辞書を引く▽辞書に当たる 〔辞典〕▽辞典で調べる▽国語辞典▽ことわざ辞典▽英和辞典 〔字引〕▽字引がないと手紙も書けない▽生き字引 [使い分け] 【1】「辞典」は、「辞書」のやや新しい呼び方。明治以降、書名に用いられるようになって広まった語。 【2】「辞書」「辞典」は、同じように使い、「事典」「字典」をさすことも多い。 【3】「字引」は、俗な言い方。 【4】「辞典」は、「事典」と区別して、「ことばてん」ともいう。 [関連語] ◆(事典) 物や事柄を表わす語を集めて解説した書物。「辞典」と区別して、「ことてん」ともいう。[英]an encyclop(a)edia「百科事典」「乗り物事典」
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Post by Bokusenou on Oct 19, 2014 16:46:17 GMT
Ah, I forgot about that one! さすがchocopie!
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Post by Jembru on Oct 19, 2014 23:41:51 GMT
That looks like a great resource. Thanks Chocopie. I'll bookmark that when I'm on my PC for sure. That's the kind of thing I've been looking for. Sometimes the definitions on kotobank are just too similar to really grasp any difference.
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Post by Jembru on Oct 28, 2014 17:32:55 GMT
Does anyone know what the Japanese call the masu stem (and the masu form in general actually). Is 連用形 the stem? Or does that include the te form as well. I know learners often use マス形, テ形 and so on, but I heard the Japanese don't use these words. So what DO they use? 「ますです体で言っているとき使う種類」? Bit long winded isn't it?
If Anna sees this, I'd be interested to know what your teacher calls these when she's speaking Japanese. I wonder if she just switches to English and says 'masu form' for ease?
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Post by Bokusenou on Oct 28, 2014 23:58:49 GMT
Hmm, I'm not sure. When I was at the language school they called it 丁寧形 or 丁寧体 as opposed to 普通形(casual form), but mentioning these to other Japanese people just got them confused, so I think it's just a Japanese as a second language thing. EDIT: This might help: www.nihongoresources.com/language/grammar.html#section-3-1-Revisits_and_simple_inflectionsIt's the most Japanese grammar term-heavy of all the online grammar guides I know. It looks like 連用形 is the stem and 連体形 is ます.
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Post by Jembru on Oct 29, 2014 6:15:52 GMT
Woah, thanks for that link! That will be a massive help for writing about grammar in Japanese. There are terms I hadn't even considered I would need, but that are bound to come up sooner or later! I'll copy them into my passive vocab deck on anki, and drop them into my main deck one at a time. I think trying to learn them all in one go would be a bit much.
I'm thinking of keeping a mini spiral bound* notebook next year, that has a collection of useful expressions for describing language. Then I can keep that on my desk and quickly refer to it for words I've forgotten how to write. Like most people, (including native speakers apparently), I can read more kanji than I can I write, so it would let me use more kanji in my notes than I could if I were just writing form memory. That might cut out the need to memorise these by heart altogether... I just need to be able to read them.
*I keep mentioning spiral bound notebooks.. this is because from trial and error, I've discovered that other styles don't stay open when you're not holding them and as I use several notebooks at once when studying, I've had to weigh pages down with objects in the past. I guess that's why so many people prefer ring binders...
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Post by chocopie on Dec 14, 2014 14:02:34 GMT
I'm thinking of keeping a mini spiral bound* notebook next year, that has a collection of useful expressions for describing language. JembruI found a site that might help with Japanese grammar in Japanese: マナペディアIt's a study website for school students e.g. here's an article on 動詞の活用形Basically for grammar go to 中学国語 at the top of the page and then choose 文法 from the right hand side - or whatever you're interested in. I've found the articles are pretty concise and easy to read
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Post by Jembru on Dec 21, 2014 10:06:45 GMT
JembruI found a site that might help with Japanese grammar in Japanese: マナペディアIt's a study website for school students e.g. here's an article on 動詞の活用形Basically for grammar go to 中学国語 at the top of the page and then choose 文法 from the right hand side - or whatever you're interested in. I've found the articles are pretty concise and easy to read Thanks for that! That'll be really helpful next year. Well.. maybe from Christmas. I have decided to give myself my new stationary then, so I can start playing about with it before January 1st. I've been more or less keeping all my written notes in Japanese for a little over a month now, so that my handwriting was neater by the time I started using my good stationary. Thanks again. This is a great find. I've been doing searches myself now and then but haven't been able to come up with anything as good as this yet!
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Post by Jembru on Jan 9, 2015 21:13:56 GMT
I think pon is ok. Kai sounds more like it refers to the number of times someone has made a video. Admittedly though I don't watch any Japanese youtubers... I've been meaning to come back to this for ages.. but I started noticing hon/bon/pon being used by youtubers. Just thought I'd reassure you that your answer was correct! youtu.be/r3V4Y0UshuA?t=5m58sOh and that reminds me of something else I'd been meaning to mention... I can't remember where we discussed it, but remember the na-keiyoushi conversation? Well I stopped subscribing to Japanese pod101 not long after that, and hadn't been listening to a series hosted by Peter (the only one who seemed to use the expression), so I was never able to show you a concrete example. I'd pretty much forgotten about it until recently, when I came by its use in print. One of the N2 books I got last year uses イ形容詞 and ナ形容詞 throughout the grammar section! I think our conclusion last time, that this is usage that has popped up through teaching Japanese as a second language in Japan, is probably true. They're handy terms I suppose, because it helps the learner to mentally compare them both to adjectives in their native language, rather than considering them as 2 separate categories of word. Or maybe it's just because it's easier to memorise one word instead of two.
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Post by Jembru on Feb 9, 2015 3:25:45 GMT
I have a quick question.. I've come by a use of 一応 that I haven't seen before. I'm familiar with the use of this word to mean the speaker is making a tentative statement, showing hesitation or they know what they're about to say might sound boastful so are using it like fake humility, a softer for the whopper of a boast that's about to come out of their mouth. But what then, is it doing here..
その当時はもう、日本で一応すでに働いてましたか、それとも学生さんでしたか
The speaker isn't a native speaker, and he does have a tendency to word things awkwardly, so it's possible it is just an out right mistake, but if not, I'd really like to know what this 一応 is doing there.
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Post by chocopie on Feb 9, 2015 21:04:01 GMT
My thoughts are: neither the 'not completely' meaning of 一応, nor the 'just in case' meaning fit here, and it doesn't seem like 'once' would fit either as the verb is continuous.
However it might work as 'for the time being'? but then it seems odd followed immediately by すでに...
Probably better to ask some native speakers to be sure though. I have come across '一応すでに' before, but with the meaning of 'just in case, I already (did something)' or 'already briefly (did something)', neither of which fit here as far as I can tell.
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Post by Jembru on Feb 10, 2015 17:29:23 GMT
Thanks Chocopie. I'll try to remember to ask next time I get a chance. I think you could be right that he's misunderstood the meaning of 一応すでに though. It's easy to pick up a phrase in context but get the wrong idea of how it's used (if I had a penny... ^^*). So, is it like the 一応 adds a feeling that the thing that was already done, was done for some kind of benefit? Then I think he's probably used it in error. The lady he's talking to is talking about moving to Canada from Japan. His intended question was, 'So had you already started working in Japan before you came over here, or were you still a student?' I'd have gone for something way simpler, 'もう働いていたんですか' would have got the job done, but he's considerably better than I am at Japanese, so maybe this was just him pulling 'language wheelies'. Trying to go for something more advanced sounding and slipping up.
*すでに is actually an example of this in fact. I first encountered the expression in 'A lawyer meets a lawyer' on Japanese pod101. After that, whenever I heard it, it was in a negative/teasing sense like, 'You don't have to tell me, I already know...', 'well I've already done it, so there!' 'you could have told me sooner, I've already posted it...' and so on. So I thought it had a kind of 'いまさら' nuance to it, and avoided using it if I wasn't annoyed or trying to be snotty.
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