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Post by Jembru on Feb 17, 2014 18:12:57 GMT
Alternatively, could this not also be, 'If she told Saju and Choku about it (literally; if she said that to..), they'd call her strange.'? That's how I understood it when I read that line, so I thought it was worth throwing it out for discussion in case others wonder the same thing. If was a hypothetical thing I would expect something indicating conjecture on Erin's part. Something like 「・・・と言うだろう。」 or「・・・と言うかもしれない。」. What do other people think? (leaving all the quotes as it's a new page) Hmm, I wondered that, but because I've heard other similar expressions, I'm not so sure. She knows her friends well and from experience, knows they react that way whenever she talks about her feelings about the Touda, so is pretty sure they'd say that. However, this is literature and I've learnt that you can't write the way you'd speak in Japanese. So just because I've heard this kind of expression (usually in the context of things like .. 'if we don't leave now, we'll miss the bus', or 'no no, if I have one more, I'll be ill in the morning.'), that doesn't mean it would definitely translate that way into written Japanese. Still, I find it hard to imagine that the author would be using that present tense narrative when speaking about something that happened in the past from the current point in the story (compare to how she recalls conversations with her mum earlier), so I stick by my gut feeling on this one. I can ask a native speaker for their opinion if it gets too frustrating though. Alternatively, it could be talking about a repeated action, 'whenever she tells her friends they say she's weird'.
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Post by chocopie on Feb 17, 2014 19:25:55 GMT
Still on the subject of: そう言うと、サジュやチョクは、エリンは変だと言う。 When Erin said this, Saju and Choku said she was strange.
In the examples you've given of 「AするとB」, the consequence is in the future so they are hypothetical situations, but Erin is still in bed so I think we're still talking about the past while using the historic present. It could be repeated action though, "Whenever Erin told this to Saju and Choku, they would say she was strange." That does actually sound much better as well...
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Post by Bokusenou on Feb 17, 2014 20:14:51 GMT
"Whenever Erin told this to Saju and Choku, they would say she was strange." sounds better to me, but that could be because there aren't two "said"s anymore.
そばに行くのさえいやなのだそうだ。 They wouldn't even go near them.
NEXT LINE: 闘蛇はたしかに怖い生き物だから、エリンもその気持ちはわからないわけではない。
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Post by Jembru on Feb 17, 2014 22:19:41 GMT
"Whenever Erin told this to Saju and Choku, they would say she was strange." sounds better to me, but that could be because there aren't two "said"s anymore. そばに行くのさえいやなのだそうだ。 They wouldn't even go near them. NEXT LINE: 闘蛇はたしかに怖い生き物だから、エリンもその気持ちはわからないわけではない。 Yeah, I added that as an after thought, but I'm starting to lean more towards it being a habitual action. I forgot to mention earlier, but it's also the use of 'ya' rather than 'to' which feels more like, 'if I say that to the likes of...' or 'when I say that to the likes of...' I don't think 'ya' would be used in a specific event like, 'when I said... to...'. I've sent a group message to Miyo and Kanako et al, so should get a reply soon that can put our minds to rest once and for all. 闘蛇はたしかに怖い生き物だから、エリンもその気持ちはわからないわけではない。 The touda certainly are scary creatures, so Erin could understand where they were coming from. (literally; it's not that Erin didn't also know that feeling) EDIT: Woah, my native speaking friends don't even know what to make of this after seeing the entire paragraph! It's apparently a very weird writing style and hard to read, but Kana thinks my first thought was most likely correct, but feels 'weird' is better than 'strange'. She wants to think about it and get back to us though. Miyo says that the language used is quite ambiguous and in English, requires more detailed translation than the sentence actually gives us. So there may be no right answer. So, I think this means... the fact that we read this and understood it differently, doesn't mean anyone was wrong as such, just that we're experiencing something the Japanese come across all the time but don't even register. It's just our English-speaking minds getting in the way!
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Post by Bokusenou on Feb 18, 2014 0:14:48 GMT
Jembru Really? Thanks for that. Woah...I guess it doesn't really matter much. I think the main point of this part is to show how much Erin likes toudas, and how she's different from the other kids she knows because of that. If we get that across, that's the main thing.
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Post by Bokusenou on Feb 18, 2014 0:30:19 GMT
Ah, almost forgot.
NEXT LINE: だけど……自分でもなぜだかわからないけれど……エリンは闘蛇《とうだ》を見ていると、時を忘れてしまう。
I made a new post because my phone isn't letting me paste it in the old one for some reason. I'll update the current page in the first post when I'm at my computer.
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Post by Jembru on Feb 18, 2014 10:27:59 GMT
I'm glad it's not just me who's mobile randomly decides not to allow editing of posts!
Something else came out btw.. I'm waiting for a reply to let me know I've understood correctly, and see if everyone agrees, but it seems we all missed something that my friend Tannya picked up on.. それ言うと probably doesn't literally mean, 'if she said that', but rather, 'Come to mention it..' so the line was more like, 'come to mention it, Erin's friends think she's weird (for thinking this way)'. And THAT is why there was no need to use the past tense! Miyo had also suggested that it was from Erin's point of view, that the others think (or literally 'say') she's weird. I'll come back with the final consensus if we reach one, but I'm not holding out much hope. Several translations seem possible here.
だけど……自分でもなぜだかわからないけれど……エリンは闘蛇《とうだ》を見ていると、時を忘れてしまう。 And yet... she didn't understand why herself, but when Erin watched the touda, she lost track of time.
NEXT LINE: なめらかに水底《みなそこ》に潜《もぐ》ってから、黒い水をまとって、うねりながら浮《う》かびあがってくるその姿を見ると怖《こわ》くて鳥肌《とりはだ》が立つけれど、それでも、目が離《はな》せない。
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Post by chocopie on Feb 18, 2014 13:32:29 GMT
I usually come across そういえば being translated translated as "come to mention it". The more I look at that sentence though the less it seems to make sense... I chose strange rather than weird because the meaning of weird as 'odd' is a comparatively modern meaning.
I think part of our confusion though comes from the fact that we're looking at individual sentences. Longer sentences make more sense on their own, but with shorter sentences you tend to need more context from the surrounding sentences.
なめらかに水底に潜ってから、黒い水をまとって、うねりながら浮かびあがってくるその姿を見ると怖くて鳥肌が立つけれど、それでも、目が離せない。 Watching them gliding to the depths of the pool, surrounded by black water, and winding their way up to the surface was scary and gave her goosebumps, but even so she couldn't look away.
Next line: ずっと、一日中でも闘蛇を見ていたかった。
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Post by Jembru on Feb 19, 2014 2:24:22 GMT
I usually come across そういえば being translated translated as "come to mention it". The more I look at that sentence though the less it seems to make sense... I chose strange rather than weird because the meaning of weird as 'odd' is a comparatively modern meaning. I think part of our confusion though comes from the fact that we're looking at individual sentences. Longer sentences make more sense on their own, but with shorter sentences you tend to need more context from the surrounding sentences. Before discussing it with my friends, I think I'd only ever seen such expressions with いえば too, but I know from other uses of conditionals, that they're often somewhat interchangeable (急がなきゃ 急がないと 急がなくちゃ: 'We've gotta hurry'), so I don't see any reason why the same could not be true here. Also, no one in the discussion (it was 4-way with native speakers), disagreed with the conclusion, although they also didn't rule out any of the other possibilities altogether. Usually I agree that Japanese is better in context although I do forget sometimes and translate a line in isolation (often going back and changing 'I', to 'Erin', because I'd forgotten the narrative style ^^). This time though, I gave my friends the entire paragraph and one of them came to Gaiwa and read the thread to get a feel of what was happening in the story so far. They honestly agreed in the end that sometimes, it's just too ambiguous to nail down to a specific English translation without ruling out other possibilities. Of course, none of my fluent Japanese speaking friends are native English speakers, so there could be a language barrier preventing them from seeing the obvious solution. This is one reason why I value my non-native speaking friends so highly.. sometimes they're the only ones who can see the wood for the trees! I have a friend who's a native speaking Japanese interpreter. She's super busy, so I only catch up with her every now and then, but I'll definitely be asking her about this when I see her next. It has me fascinated that a language can be this ambiguous. I'm almost annoyed with it! ^^ Anyway, I'd be very interested to hear what your own Japanese friends have to say on the matter if you (and anyone else on the forum), would mind running it past them. It's fascinating stuff! Soo.. Hey! Why do I keep getting the easy lines? Is it because I cried on the first page? lol ずっと、一日中でも闘蛇を見ていたかった。 She just wanted to watch the touda all day long. (I wanted to say, 'she could watch the touda...' because in English I can say, 'I could eat this cake all day long..' when I mean, 'I want to.., but know I can't', and that's the feeling I get from this line.. however, after complaining about Japanese, I find myself faced with an ambiguous English line.. 'Erin could watch them...' could mean.. she wants to.. she's allowed to.. she's physically able to... she's potentially able too.. so I just went for 'wanted to' ^^) Next line: 闘蛇も夜には眠《ねむ》るのだろうか?
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Post by chocopie on Feb 19, 2014 10:35:24 GMT
Jembru If the sentence is short and easy do more! It's not like we'll be running out any time soon 闘蛇も夜には眠るのだろうか? Do the touda sleep at night as well? 夜半の見回りにも、ついていきたかったけれど、どうしても起きることができなくて、まだ一度も行っていない。 She wanted to accompany the night patrol too, but she couldn't wake up no matter how she tried and hadn't even been once. Next line: 母が起きる気配《けはい》で目がさめるたびに、起きようと思うのだけれど、瞼《まぶた》が膠《にかわ》でくっついてしまっているようで、目をあけることもできないのだ。
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Post by Jembru on Feb 19, 2014 19:22:59 GMT
I'm rushing (soo much to do tonight), so forgive anything I might have misread but..
母が起きる気配《けはい》で目がさめるたびに、起きようと思うのだけれど、瞼《まぶた》が膠《にかわ》でくっついてしまっているようで、目をあけることもできないのだ。 Whenever her mum getting out of bed would wake her up, she'd think she should get up too, but her eyelids would be clamped shut, as though glued, and she just couldn't open them.
NEXT LINE: 闇《やみ》の中に母の寝息《ねいき》が聞こえはじめるまえに、エリンは深い眠りに吸いこまれていた。
(Note for Rin: We're getting quite far down now, so I'll add the next page to the first thread when I get a spare moment at work.)
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Post by Bokusenou on Feb 19, 2014 23:47:03 GMT
Jembru Woah, that was fast! I added the next page to the first post. Too tired to translate right now, so I'll leave that line for the next person.
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Post by chocopie on Feb 20, 2014 10:14:21 GMT
闇の中に母の寝息が聞こえはじめるまえに、エリンは深い眠りに吸いこまれていた。 Before she heard the quiet breathing of her mother's sleep, Erin was enveloped by a deep slumber.
Next lines (two because the first is very short!): どのくらい眠っただろうか。 突然《とつぜん》、耳をつんざくような甲高《かんだか》い笛《ふえ》の音が鳴《な》り響《ひび》き、エリンは、びくっととび起きた。
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Post by Bokusenou on Feb 21, 2014 1:17:08 GMT
どのくらい眠っただろうか。 How long had she slept?
突然《とつぜん》、耳をつんざくような甲高《かんだか》い笛《ふえ》の音が鳴《な》り響《ひび》き、エリンは、びくっととび起きた。 Suddenly Erin awoke with a start, as the ear-piercing, high-pitched sound of a whistle echoed through the room.
NEXT LINE: かたわらで、母が寝具《しんぐ》をはねのけて起きあがるのが見えた。
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Post by chocopie on Feb 21, 2014 16:45:24 GMT
かたわらで、母が寝具をはねのけて起きあがるのが見えた。 To the side she saw her mother casting aside the bedding as she got up. Next line: もう夜が明けはじめた時刻《じこく》らしく、母の姿はさっきよりはっきりと見えていた。
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