|
Post by MidoriAbby on Dec 3, 2013 0:09:05 GMT
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's noticed this; when you type 'hajimeru' or 'hajimete' or any other word having to do with that verb, which means 'to begin', there are two kanji options; 始 and 初. For the longest time I thought they were interchangeable, but recently I bought a book at a Japanese bookstore in New York, which was a textbook for Japanese elementary school students studying Japanese grammar for their Japanese classes. I thought 'wow this is useful' because it went over all sorts of grammar that is easily mistaken, as well as kanji. There was a whole section on Kanji with the same kunyomi/similar meanings that are commonly confused, and these two were the first mentioned. (the book is called 小学生のための「正しい日本語トレーニング」, there are three volumes; beginner level, intermediate level, and advanced level. I bought the intermediate level one recommended for Japanese kids grades 2-4.So, I thought I'd make a post in the study assistance thread giving two general tips on the stuff I learned about commonly confused kanji that is even often gotten wrong by native speakers, starting with 始 VS 初. 初 is used in prepositional phrases. For those of you who may not know what that is, it's not a verb, but a phrase that describes location, time, etc. (I'm sure that's not a formal definition but basically that is the point.) The main prepositional phrases it's used in in Japanese are:1) 初(はつ)meaning "first", for example 初デート (first date- hatsudeito).2) 初めて (はじめて)meaning "for the first time". For example 初めて海外に行く(はじめて かいがい に いく)"to go overseas for the first time".3) 初めに (はじめに)meaning "in the beginning"始 is used when "hajimeru" is used as a verb. In any tense. Such as 仕事を始める (しごと を はじめる)which means 'to start a new job', or 今日は学校を始めました。(きょう は がっこう を はじめました)which means "today I started school." It is also used on the end of the verb stem for 'to start to ___', for example 日本語を勉強し始める (にほんご を べんきょう しはじめる)"to start studying Japanese"This rule is the same for Hajimaru (the intransitive verb, meaning 'something starts' versus 'someone starts something'). 初まり (はじまる) means "the beginning of something", and it's not a verb so technically 初 is supposed to be used. Whereas 学校が始まる (がっこう が はじまる- school starts) uses 始2) 直す/治す The two "なおす/naosu" kanji. The two verbs are used in different contexts even though they're said the same, depending on which kanji you use.治す means "to fix/heal" and is correctly used when talking about injuries or illnesses. The same kanji is used for 治れる (to be healed/fixed). Common ways it is used are けがを治す(けが を なおす)meaning 'to heal an injury', or 病気を治す (びょうき を なおす)meaning "to cure an illness"直す is used when you are talking about doing something over again, such as 作り直す(つくりなおす)"to remake", or 書き直す(かきなおす)"to rewrite". So those are two tips! There are a bunch more differences mentioned in the book like 周り/回り and 帰る/返る and 別れる/分かれる, which I might post tips on in this thread at a later date, but I haven't really finished reading the explanations/gained a full understanding yet.So if you guys want to participate, and you have two kanji with the same/similar readings or meanings that are easily confused, please put them below! Or if you have any questions about what I just explained above.
|
|
|
Post by Jembru on Dec 3, 2013 15:49:47 GMT
Maan.. I just wrote a reply but then my browser just closed for no reason and I lost it That book sounds great. I love learning from stuff aimed at kids. I can't think of any kanji I currently mix up, but that's because I don't know I'm mixing them up. I've had a few corrected on lang-8 so learnt the correct ones that way, and others, like 直す/治す, I learnt the difference of as I learnt the kanji. I used to always mix up 会う and 合う, and even still do when the font is too small to see them properly or I'm not paying attention. I know when to use them now, but not really why they differ, so I'd like to know what your book has to say. I think I understand the difference between 回る and 周る, but it's mainly guesswork, so maybe you can tell me if I'm right? I think 回る is for items rotating on their axis, like a spinning CD, or if I reached out my arms and spun on the spot. 周る on the other hand, is for things returning to the same point in a habitual manner. So birthdays come around with 周る and horses doing circuits in a race will use 周る. If I am right, then I guess the Earth spins on it's axis with 回る, but orbits the sun with 周る? Incidentally, I recently learnt a cool compound that uses the kanji 周. I think you'll like it too (and most probably recently learnt it too if I know you!)... ドクター・フーの50周年記念日 Did you see it? I bet you did. It was amazing! I can't wait for the Christmas special now.
|
|
|
Post by MidoriAbby on Dec 3, 2013 20:35:32 GMT
JembruThe difference between 会う and 合う isn't talked about in the book, but I've read an article about it somewhere. 会う means "to meet" and is used in contexts when it has that meaning. 合う means 'to go well with"/ "to do something at the same time/with eachother". For example 話し合う (to talk to each other) 、似合う (to go well with something/to go well together), etc. 間に合う also uses it. So when it doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of 'to meet someone', you use the second kanji. As for the two 'mawaru' kanji, it's not... quite like that. The book did talk about that. Going around the sun would still use 回る. 回る is used to talk about something moving in a circle around something else. 周る is used primarily to talk about location, for example 私の周りに (around me), etcetera. I didn't know that compound! Thanks for teaching me. But I DID see the 50th Anniversary, and I LOVED it.
|
|
|
Post by Bokusenou on Dec 5, 2013 4:14:45 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Jembru on Dec 5, 2013 4:26:41 GMT
Wow, thanks for the link bokusenou! I'll be bookmarking that...
EDIT: Just had a proper look now (I was skyping when I first looked at it so couldn't give it my full attention). That book explained it so simply!
You meet people with 会う Non-human things meet (or are met) with 合う And you meet unpleasant events with 逢う
I have a feeling I'm going to enjoy this book ^^
|
|
|
Post by Jembru on Dec 6, 2013 20:54:41 GMT
I came across another homophonic verb pair while I was editing the script into my last post in the important words thread. 彫る and 掘る 「ほる」 I of course knew 掘る (to dig) due to my minecraft obsession, and I knew the kanji because it's in my minecraft vocab on anki. A few weeks ago, I was working through lower intermediate season 6 on Jpod101 and discovered they used 'horareta' for 'to be engraved on'. I just assumed it was the same kanji as 'to dig', being such similar words. Then when I tried to write my sentences in Japanese earlier, I saw there was another kanji I'd never seen before. They're easy enough to tell apart. 掘 has the component 山 which is also in 岩、'rock', while 彫 kind of reminds me of 形 because of the right hand side. So you mine rock and you engrave shapes! ^^ Now I can't wait to play minecraft and check to see if 'chiseled cobble stone' is listed as 彫った丸石. I can't say I've ever come across chiseled cobble stone (or sandstone) in Japanese yet. Oh why must I go to work like a boring old adult??
|
|
|
Post by Bokusenou on Dec 6, 2013 23:59:33 GMT
Jembru, Yeah I bought the book a while ago, and still find myself turning to it a lot! The author of it also ran a newsletter for a while about the same kinds of words, and the archive of it can be found online.
|
|
|
Post by Jembru on Jan 20, 2014 0:39:54 GMT
I am in need of some disambiguation and thought this was the place to come.
This is.. the what now??
お客様は脚が長いし...
What is 脚 and why is it not 足? As you can probably guess, this was a shopkeeper talking to a customer. Should that affect the kanji used? Sorry if this is noob stuff, I'm still not up to speed with the whole 'alternative kanji' thing. I've heard explanations such as 'you use 聴く for listening to music' but these are not holding up in practice. Authentic texts aren't following the rules. I'm getting rather cross ^^
|
|
|
Post by Bokusenou on Jan 20, 2014 1:25:44 GMT
From Meikyou: 「脚」は元来、ひざから下の部分の意だが、 足全体の意でも使う。哺乳動物の場合は「▽肢」、昆虫は「脚」と書き分けることもある。
From Daijisen: 哺乳動物には二本の前肢と二本の後肢があるが、ヒトでは前肢を上肢(手)、後肢を下肢(足)という。骨盤の下から足首までを「脚」(leg)、くるぶしから先を「足」(foot)と書いて区別することがある。
So it looks like 脚 is mostly used for "leg", or "upper leg".
|
|
|
Post by Jembru on Jan 20, 2014 8:42:45 GMT
Hey thanks for those definitions! Although if I'm honest, I'm still confused. I think it's maybe my Japanese that's causing trouble here.
First of all, 足 also frequently means leg. I've heard that it usually means the lower leg, but that it can mean the entire leg. I found dozens of examples of 'ashi ga nagai' using this kanji and not 脚. I looked it up on kotobank and this kanji was just thrown together with 足. The only thing that seemed to prefer 脚 was when talking about the bottom structures of a kanji.
Then there is my other issue of.. those definitions you posted mean something different to me. I'll break down my translation (it's deliberately as literal as possible) so you can see where I'm going wrong..
「脚」は元来、ひざから下の部分の意だが、 This originally meant the section from the knee down but,
足全体の意でも使う。 it's also used for the whole leg.
哺乳動物の場合は「▽肢」、昆虫は「脚」と書き分けることもある。 There is a distinction that in the case of mammals it's written with 肢 while for insects it's 脚
I mean WHA?? The first part is basically exactly the same that is said about 足. That it's officially meant to be just from the knee down, but often means the entire leg. Then it seems that maybe these alternative kanji are for more technical situations such as a zoological report. If so, then why on earth was the shop assistant commenting on the lady's spider legs? A typo?
The next definition seems to be more concerned with 肢 and while it uses it when explaining the difference when talking about humans, it also puts the 'correct' kanji in brackets, making me think that these really aren't any different at all, other than, like I thought from the first definition, maybe 肢 is just more technical? Then it also says that 脚 (this time using the insect kanji?) is for the knee to the ankle while 足 is the foot. Well, this isn't how the language is used. I may only be learning, but I'm at least confident enough in my personal experience to know that 足 is frequently used for legs.
Sorry, I'm probably misunderstanding something here. I don't get the same feeling that it's mostly used for 'leg' or 'upper leg'. At least from those definitions :s
Maybe I should just ignore it and assume with the childish texts I read, I'll unlikely come by this kanji again.
|
|
|
Post by Bokusenou on Jan 20, 2014 19:30:39 GMT
Well 脚=leg, 足=foot is how the definition to tell them apart, but they are also used as alternative kanji for each other, like 青い and 蒼い. Japanese people get them mixed up too (try Googling 足 脚 違い or 足 脚 使い分け to see what I mean, you get a lot of different answers as well). 聞く and 聴く are in that book I mentioned a while ago, ビミョウな漢字, and that book is meant for Japanese adults, no furigana at all. You know how a common mistake along native English speakers is to mix up "it's" and "its" because they look similar? Same reading but different kanji-type words are like that for Japanese people.
|
|
|
Post by Jembru on Jan 20, 2014 23:59:46 GMT
Yeah, I've been noticing quite a lot of typos from native speakers on FB. I'm forever making mistakes when I type in English, so I totally understand! Yeah, I'd googled the difference myself earlier and was totally baffled. So what was all that about 脚 being for insects? Example sentences I looked up definitely didn't make that distinction, I'd never seen that until you shared those definitions earlier, but like you said, that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Oh my comment about the books, I meant the books I read. I tend to stick to things aimed at children that have fewer kanji in them, so chances are I won't meet the alternative kanji. The kiku thing though, I'm starting to think that 'rule' is about as iron clad as the rule that we should use 'whom' in English for the indirect object of an action. Most of us know this rule but few of us adhere to it. It's just something they stick on English proficiency exams to separate the men from the boys. I shouldn't worry too much. I keep saying I want to be conversational. I guess I'm one case where it would be better to do as the natives do, regardless of what is considered 'correct'.
|
|
|
Post by Bokusenou on Jan 22, 2014 3:22:32 GMT
哺乳動物の場合は「▽肢」、昆虫は「脚」と書き分けることもある。 That part above? It just says that for mammals 肢 (uncommon, as indicated by the triangle) is used while for insects 脚 is used for insects. I probably should have mentioned that this is located right after the first definition of "あし 「足・脚」" (a thing which animals use to walk). Who knows how well it's followed though.
Yeah, good point about "whom". I guess that's why some non-native English speakers' English sounds technically more "proper" but kind of unnatural.
|
|
|
Post by Jembru on Jan 22, 2014 9:01:53 GMT
Ah I get it now! Thanks for explaining. I didn't realise the triangle meant it was uncommon. If only there were someone on the Gaiwa staff team who was well enough acquainted with Japanese dictionaries to write a short article on things like the symbols and abbreviations used! That would be so handy I noticed this 'too perfect to the point of being imperfect' affect more in Germany. The quality of English tuition over there is second to none and while not everyone masters the language, many who do speak it a little too well. They're a tough bunch to teach because they won't hold back in stopping you mid-flow and pointing out that your example on the board isn't how their grammar book explains it. The conversation schools there give their staff much less freedom in creating lessons (Berlitz even make their teachers take more of a support role, with the main 'teacher' being a computer program, because native speakers can't be trusted to know English well enough for German learners ^^). The Japanese on the other hand, as a general rule, are more determined to get away from textbook English and want to sound like a native, warts and all. I think this is why I worry so much about whether words or grammar sound normal in spoken Japanese. When training in Japan, I was told 'teach it how you would say it, not how you think it should be said', and I guess this mentality has stuck with me.
|
|
|
Post by Bokusenou on Jan 22, 2014 20:15:46 GMT
Ugh, tired from snow shoveling...sorry if my replies are less coherent than usual.
Good idea (笑), I was planning on writing an (probably multi-part) article comparing all the different major E-J and J-J dictionaries anyway. I'll include something about the symbols, or branch it off into another article. Different dictionaries use different symbols, but if I go through the ones for one or two major dictionaries, the rest shouldn't be too hard for people to figure out...
A computer program taught the classes?! That is so wrong, in many ways... Hmm, I've heard stories about ESL teaching in Japanese schools to be really test-oriented, with very little emphasis on speaking, and that's why Eikaiwa schools are so big there, but Eikaiwa schools usually just want English speakers to play the role of human tape recorder. I don't have any direct experience with Japanese ESL teaching, so it could be wrong though.
|
|