Anyone seen this article?

[Jembru]

Actually, rather than a thread just for discussing this article, maybe we could use this as a kind of 'drop box' for interesting articles we've found relating to studying Japanese. 

So I have just finished reading this. It was shared on YesJapan's forum (although I don't actually use that site or the forum, so don't know what they were saying about it). So users of that site may have already come across it. 

www.japantoday.com/category/opinions/view/why-you-shouldnt-learn-japanese

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think the author's intentions were sincere? I mean, I can't deny that on the whole, all that about the drop out rate is true and I myself have been pretty darned close to dropping out on a number of occasions, including just 3 days ago when I decided to cry for 20 minutes and tear up my study schedule: I stopped before deleting anki and cancelling my Jpod subscription, thankfully!).  However, I think he's overplayed it a little. The author seems to live in Japan, yet claims he's only met 10 people who can speak Japanese well? Honestly? Just 10? While I must admit that a greater proportion of non-native speakers I know from outside of Japan, speak good Japanese compared to those I knew while in Japan... wait, that's a terrible sentence, lets try again.. In Japan, I worked in a staff team of, I think 22 native English speakers. Over half spoke no Japanese, and of those who did speak Japanese, 2 were good enough to hold a conversation, while the rest could just order at a restaurant or ask directions and so on. Through my Japanese group here in England, if I include Miki-sensei's students and my former tutor's friend, I have met 9 non-native speakers of Japanese of which only 3 weren't conversational. One was about my own level, maybe even, dare I say it, a little weaker (but more grammatically accurate) the other has only just started studying.


So what I am trying to say, is somehow, while a lot of people DO seam to drop out from self-teaching, those who don't (or do, but return to the language), more often than not seem to see it through to the end.  So is the guy trying to be realistic, and making a valid point, or just trying to scare people off from trying, so he can protect his exclusive status as one of those who made it, and prevent it becoming too overcrowded, and thus a less special place to be, at the top?

Perhaps contrary to his intentions, it actually made me feel better after reading this; a slightly more honest account of just how long it takes someone to reach proficiency (oh come on, we all know people tend to shave off half a year here and there and downplay the effort it has taken them. I try not to, and I think I've been fairly successful in being a beaming example of the kind of highs and lows, adult-tantrums and sluggish progress that really happen behind the scenes for many learners. but especially online, people do fib). Reading this should have made me mad. It should have made me think he's just another one of those 'knock them all down so no one else can be as special as I am' twerps, but instead, he made me feel better about my own progress... maybe a little smug about how well I'm doing. 4,000 hours? Phft, I've spent a lot of time, sure, but definitely nowhere near that, studying Japanese. Definitely not.  I've only studied daily for almost 2 years, and if I am honest, I get no more than 1-2 hours per day on average. Maybe my maths is out here, but I think I'd have to have been studying as I currently am for 6-11 years, to have studied for 4,000 hrs. Even if you take into account my dabbling before now, I most definitely haven't clocked up that amount of hours.  A generous estimate puts me at about 1,000 study hours a very generous, almost delusional estimate, might place me at 1,500.  

So I feel better now. I know there are people with better reading, better speaking, better listening and so on, than me, but I understand that they have simply had more exposure to the language than I have, more practice with these skills... I'm probably not the moron I thought I was after all. So I shall continue to study, happy in the knowledge that for being less than a quarter of the way there, I'm doing pretty darned well. I'm sure this will be very disappointing news for the author of this article however. ^^ 

[魔]

Here's a similar one -link


I like these types of articles, they usually write them in a funny way.

[Jembru]

Nov 21, 2013 19:55:49 GMT 魔 said:

Here's a similar one -link


I like these types of articles, they usually write them in a funny way.

OMG that one was way worse. What an ego trip! At least the guy who wrote the one I posted, attempted to sound sincere. 'your tiny little brain..' because of course, anyone who hasn't yet mastered a language they've just started learning, must be stupid. I'd LOVE to hear this person's Japanese. I'd just love to, because I bet you anything it isn't anywhere near as perfect as he imagines it is. Why do I think this? 'Prepare to be laughed at...' Nobody who has actually spoken Japanese to real living breathing native Japanese speakers, would write this sentence. My Japanese is only just understandable drivel. I can make myself understood, but my grammar is all over the place and I say really silly things. Yet I am rarely laughed at. If I AM laughed at, it tends to be because I've used onomatopoeia, in which case, I've noticed natives laugh at one another in that case too, or we are both nervous so laughing at everything. When I make a mistake, they either repeat back what I said, with correct grammar, maybe with a rising intonation if they're not sure that's what I meant, or they'll quickly say, (okay, with a little laugh), 'I think you meant 'hantai' not 'hentai', right?'

I know from being lucky enough to rub shoulders with people with incredible self-taught written Japanese, that until you start using the language, you will speak like a noob, despite your word perfect writing skills. So yeah.. I'd LOVE to sit this guy in a room with my Japanese conversation group and watch him squirm!

[LittleGaijin]

I don't know why exactly I didn't reply to this thread back in November, but after getting the urge to look into older threads and settle on this one... I really wanted to bring it back and see more opinions! We have a heap of new members now, and I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts! Plus, I love participating in article opinion based threads!

My opinion is that 1. this subject makes for a really controversial topic, and therefore a mighty good article. And 2. this guy is right! Too often do I see people give up on learning Japanese, or refusing to learn kana/kanji or even grammar basics. I've been approached, more times than I can count, by people saying things like "hi, can you tutor me in Japanese? I don't want to learn the alphabet or grammar though. Just phrases and vocab like 'kawaii' so I can watch anime without subtitles." 

Oh, please spare me.

Like you Jemma, after reading this article I felt a lot better about myself for how much work I put into my Japanese to come this far. However, this article is really controversial for the way it might intimidate beginners, or for the way it comes off as 'encouraging beginners to give up.' It isn't set up to inspire beginners to work harder, and forces the readers (beginners) to decide whether to prove him wrong or, well, give up like he suggests.

I have to disagree where he says "Japan is probably the most set up to accommodate people who don't speak the local language" because that's certainly not the case! My dad came to Japan with me saying that exact same thing, and he couldn't even leave the hotel in Tokyo without my help. Tokyo! The number one place in Japan where you'd expect more people to be able to speak in English (for the tourists)! For the first few days, he would try to communicate in English with the workers in stores/restaurants, but after they gave him a nervous look I would have to translate for him in Japanese until he realized that he wouldn't be able to communicate with anyone himself. His opinion that he tells people is now "90% of all Japanese in Japan know some English, but only maybe 2% of those people can actually speak and understand it." I don't think it's right to assume that a country with a primary language (other than English) will be "set up to accommodate" individuals who don't speak said primary language. I'm too tired of hearing "I don't need to learn Japanese. They 'gotta know English."

One of the comments on the article really disagreed with it, but had a good point to make.

You know it's sad that someone who has obviously spent an extended period of time in this country feels so bitter towards the locals. I hate to sound like a travel brochure, but if all you are judging Japan's worth on is your in-laws and TV, then you don't know what you're missing. Try making some real friends, get out more and enjoy the country, and you might just find the Japanese language is pretty damn useful for a person who has decided to settle down here.

It does sound as though the author might've had some bitter, personal reasons behind his opinion in this. I actually agree with his statements in sections like "Japanese Can Make You Less Popular" or even "Japan Isn’t all That." At one point he says "that’s why it’s called Japan, and not heaven" and I had to nod my head. I find that a lot of people expect Japan to look and feel like an episode from their favorite anime. However, I do feel as though he's negatively generalizing a little excessively, and fails to mention things like "Japan isn't for everyone, but there are those who love their life in Japan."

Anywho, that's my two cents. And I for one love studying Japanese because it's a beautiful language, and whenever I get a chance to use it—I'm happy and proud of myself, and that's all that matters.

[Underlig]

Disclaimer: This post is pretty boring and random.

When I read this article, I was like "what?". It was funny and made me think. But I totally agree with @littlegajin and @jemburu. Japan is not a paradise, and people who think it is are ignorant. And ignorance is NOT bliss, they should get real.
 

The "They should learn English, I don't want to learn japanese" statement is just horrible. Schools (here at least) in general seem to be bad at teaching languages, I did not learn most of my English in School(I will admit I can hold a pretty basic conversation in Spanish because of school but I've been studying Spanish for a little less than 4 YEARS). It's hard to speak foreign languages. They should try it themselves sometime.

Most of the comments were about how hard/not hard japanese is.
It got me thinking. Japanese is a lot harder for me than German is, because Japanese and Swedish(or English in most cases) aren't related. Language learning is still hard. So even though German is easier for me, I will not magically be fluent after a day's study, even though I would probably know a lot more German than I know japanese if I'd invested the same amount of time in German. Because it's different, the structure is different. But our brains love patterns and structure and japanese have structure, just like all languages do. The point is like a lot of people discussed in the comments how hard japanese is, and that's true, it is hard, and I'm not fluent, but japanese is possible. Or at least that is what I think.

I am pretty fluent in English, I can hold a conversation, write, read and listen and I can always understand what is being said(or written)(okay, the other day I didn't understand "ruminations" but I've never heard it before). 
Of course, my English isn't perfect. It took a lot of time to get where I am now, but I learned English. The fact that people actually DO learn languages is enough reason for me to continue learning
Japanese. As long as I think japanese is fun, as long as I like learning it, I see no reason not learning it. 

[chocopie]

Let me chime in too! I think this article is half in earnest, half tongue in cheek with a dash of hyperbole. I suspect it's aimed at the people you tend to come across (particularly online) who think Japan is some kind of holy land.

This seems like the key paragraph:

Most people seem to last about a year and a half. They’re all balls-out at the start, and then after several months it dawns on them that it’s a much bigger task than they were led to believe. So be aware of how long it’s going to take. If you want to spend the years, you absolutely can do it. But think about whether you want to spend a decade on Japanese before you set out. Doing it halfway seems kind of a waste of time.

I feel what he wants to say is learning Japanese takes a long time and you need to be aware of this before you start. Make sure you are prepared to dedicate the time and are in for the long-haul. Otherwise you'll end up wasting a lot of time that could ultimately have been better spent elsewhere. 

[Bokusenou]

The first one is very tongue in cheek, if you look at the type of articles he does on his blog, it's pretty much the same style.

Nov 21, 2013 19:55:49 GMT 魔 said:

Here's a similar one -link


I like these types of articles, they usually write them in a funny way.

Ah, I love the original version here (though I'm sure you can find it elsewhere)! Whoever did the one you posted added parts to make it sound much angrier. Anyway, that one is definitely a parody, even Tae Kim, who did a great Japanese grammar guide, made made his own parody of it.