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Post by Jembru on Mar 21, 2014 20:58:43 GMT
I had an idea for a new thread. Have you ever noticed how often the rules are broken in Japanese? You're told a piece of grammar, or rule by your teacher or textbook, you try to remember and use the rule, and then you hear or see the Japanese breaking the rules all the time. What we do with this information depends on our goals I guess. For example, if you want to pass exams, you definitely need to stick to the rules presented in the textbooks, but what if your dream is to sound natural in a conversation? Then surely you want to speak like your friends, not like some imaginary ideal? So, please use this thread to share your experiences of Japanese speakers breaking what you once believed was a hard and fast rule! Disclaimer: Please, please, do not use any of this if you are sitting an exam, or making a presentation in Japanese. Stick to the textbook! Also, most of the things I'll be telling you, will apply only to spoken Japanese (outside of dialogues in novels and manga), so even in casual IM conversations, you should probably avoid them.
1) なさそうAs I mentioned it in the title, lets start with this. Do you remember when you were learning how to use 'そう' with i-adjectives (meaning 'seems like')? Your textbook told you that there are 2 exceptions; いい/良い becomes よさそう and ない becomes なさそう? Well, while I've never come across 'いそう', so I believe よさそう is a solid rule, unfortunately you come across なそう in spoken Japanese. Really, quite a lot! I think most Japanese know this isn't strictly correct, but it just rolls off the tongue this way sometimes. I'm struggling to find written examples of this, so I think it could be exclusively a verbal slur. 2) The potential form of ichidan verbs ends in 'られる'So you don't say, '教えれない (oshierenai)' if you can't tell someone something. You must remember its '教えられない (oshieRArenai)'. Erm, actually you don't need to worry. If like me, you sometimes slur this form and conjugate ichidan verbs the same as godan (look, they're the same in the ~ば form.. give me a break!!^^), you're unlikely to be stopped in your tracks. The Japanese will frequently do this themselves. '納豆って?? あたしは日本人なのに、食べれないの’ (natto? Even though I'm Japanese, I can't eat it) for example. However, the same is not true of the passive form. This remains られる at all times. 3) It's arrogant to thank someone for a compliment We've all been told this. My Japanese friends even agree. If you don't want to sound foreign, you should refuse any attempt at a compliment with 'そんなことはないよ！'. So why then, do I repeatedｌｙ see 'talent' on Japanese chat shows smiling from ear to ear and exclaiming with passion, 'ありがとう！' when the host tells them how great their latest song is, or how surprisingly pretty they are? In polite settings, I'd always be cautious, but I believe the issue largely comes down to the fact that compliments are often just lip-service and not sincere in Japan, while in the west, we don't compliment one another nearly often enough, so when we do, it's usually because we genuinely mean it. Thanking someone for saying your Japanese is amazing, when you know fine well it's not, therefore seems very arrogant. However, when you truly believe the person means their compliment (for example, they've just tried the delicious cookies you made), so long as it's not all the time, you actually can get away with, 'you really think so? Thank you so much!' '本当にそう思うの？ ありがとう！ I think 3 is enough to go on for the time being. I look forward to learning what everyone else has noticed! Oh and if anyone happens to know if there is a book in existence that deals with this kind of thing (including spoken abbreviations; really just anything about the differences between written and spoken Japanese), please tell me. I've tried to find one but so far had no luck. If not, maybe we need to write one and get rich!  |
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Post by Bokusenou on Mar 21, 2014 21:45:35 GMT
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Post by 魔 on Mar 21, 2014 23:48:16 GMT
If you say なさそう fast enough it sounds like なそう. Maybe it just becomes silent like some English words. Business is a strange word. The i is silent and bus is pronounced biz. I don't remember seeing any lies in textbooks. But in a couple of non Japanese books there might be some misinformation about Japanese. The last one was an encyclopedia under alphabets. It had no Japanese on the page and they name dropped it. Something like "for example the Japanese read from right to left or top to bottom". Not mentioning that they read left to right, or that they only read right to left when reading vertically. |
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Post by Jembru on Mar 22, 2014 2:50:08 GMT
Bokusenou: That's a good link! Unfortunately there's nothing there I didn't already know. Most web-based resourses I've found seem to stick to more or less the same things.. ~chau, tte, nn and so on. There are loads more though, they just tend to be more specific maybe. I really enjoy discovering them (although I admit I should be paying more attention to the more important parts of speech like, you know.. nouns and verbs ^^). I'm terrible at thinking of good examples when I need them, but maybe things like... wait, this will be better in kana, I'll write this in google translate and copy/paste... Okay, so for example, なんつったって for 何と言っても, って for という, maybe not contractions so much as casual alternatives but also things like, だって replacing でも, なんて replacing とは. I can't think of any more just now, but they pop up all the time.. enough to fill at least a thin little pocket book, if you combined them with other characteristics of spoken language. Something like that must surely exist. It has to somewhere.. 魔. Yeah I daresay it came about because of how it sounded when spoken quickly, pretty much like our own contracted forms. It is however, an actual alternative form, rather than say, just mishearing. I only know this because it was specifically discussed in a Jpod101 lesson, and I've seen it written down in a transcript of spoken Japanese. I think because 'あ' row sounds aren't generally devoiced, for that sound to vanish, the character needs to be dropped entirely from the word. There are other examples of あ row characters being dropped altogether to make the word easier to say, like in the other example 'rareru' becoming just 'reru' but the only other one I can think of is あたたかい being shortened to あったかい. There's another adjective I know is often chopped like this but I can't remember it. I think it too was used for talking about weather or temperature. Maybe it'll come to me later. I'm really not very good at recalling knowledge. I'm sure I retain it, and it's in there somewhere, but it never comes out when I need it.
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Post by Bokusenou on Mar 22, 2014 19:42:51 GMT
Stories I didn't have time to add last time: When I was taking Japanese classes, the textbook said that women should only use kashira, never kana, as that was male-only language...all while the (female) professor used kana all throughout the times when she spoke Japanese, and then denied that she did when asked why. She went through all this trouble to make the textbook seem right... It isn't exactly a textbook story (well kind of), but one day in Japanese class, the professor said to the class "Now on this page in the textbook there is a very bad word. You must never use it! I will not say it, but you may read it if you like, but do not say it aloud! That word is banned in my classroom!" The word was anata ("you"), and I'm still not completely sure why she said this. Maybe because "you" is so common in English that English speakers learning Japanese overuse it. I don't use it much in everyday conversation, but anata still shows up a lot in things like song lyrics. Jembru Yeah, that's about the best I can find online. Well this is kind of close. It analyzes the characteristics of Japanese used in different kinds of mediums and such, including conversations. It's meant for Japanese teachers, so it doesn't have the heavy jargon of linguistics books, and goes into way more detail than any textbook I've seen. It seems like it's for teachers who want to break out of using "textbook Japanese" in their classes. I have it, but I've only read a few chapters so far. I was thinking of translating it for fun sometime... |
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Post by Jembru on Mar 23, 2014 13:51:24 GMT
They're great ones! Yeah, you hear all the time that 'this is male-only' and yet actually, girls can and do use male speaking styles (within reason; while I use male imperatives sometimes, because I'm bossy, I couldn't see myself using 'kuu' or the 'e' ending for adjectives. Not sure why but those just feel too rough for me).
Oh the anata thing! Yeah, it sounds really bad to anyone besides your husband or boyfriend (probably why it's in songs a lot). I remember hearing a story from a Japanese lady who spent part of her childhood in the states going to a regular American school. When she returned to Japan, she went to school and although then using Japanese with her friends, the influence of English caused her to start saying 'anata'. Her classmates apparently teased her and were all 'eeew, she said 'anata'!!' (this story was told by a host, I think 'Atsuka-san', on Learn Japanese Pod).
In one of the short stories in my parallel text, one of the characters doesn't have a name (he's a bear), so tells his new friend 'if you need to call me something, you may use 'anata', but if you do so, please imagine in your mind that it is written in kanji (貴方).' When I looked into it more, the kanji version is apparently used in formal situations (signs, impersonal letters/emails, announcements and so on), to substitute for the person's name (because the writer/speaker is speaking to a wider audience). So it has a bit more formal and thus respectful feeling to it (yet with that, also impersonal and therefore still not nice to use to a friend). Using 'you' in general, seems to be more of a male thing, although they usually use harsher words than 'anata'. For one reason or another, girls just prefer to avoid it, or at least that's my impression so far.
I find it so hard to avoid using 'anata' though and sometimes end up slipping it in (I call JP 'kimi' though, which I think says a lot about our relationship! ^^). I think it definitely counts as a textbook error, because there are so many books that teach anata in the first chapter. I notice that new learners tend to overuse both anata and watashi (I remember a co-worker being giggled at by the Japanese staff when I worked at NOVA, because he used 'watashi'. I've heard a lot of men complain at not being told to avoid this word before moving to Japan, and finding out the hard way). It would take nothing to add a foot note that explains you should avoid 'anata' (I believe Japanese for Busy People does, and it doesn't teach 'anata' until book 3, but I may need to check my facts on that).
Your teacher sounds like she may have been quite old, is that so? I have a friend who's a Japanese teacher in her 60s and she speaks very traditionally. I struggle to understand her sometimes because she uses words that my younger Japanese friends just don't say. I found that the Japanese lady who hosts 'nihongo de kurasou', speaks a bit like her, so watching that has helped me. Somehow I can imagine she would be embarrassed to even say 'anata', because due to her more traditional upbringing, it would feel very wrong to her. Maybe...
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Post by chocopie on Mar 23, 2014 14:12:35 GMT
I think it depends on the textbook you have as well! The textbook I used had a colloquial grammar section in each chapter and would explain colloquial versions of the grammar in the main chapter e.g. られる→れる was a relatively recent development and wasn't accepted as being grammatically correct for formal speech and writing. However, my textbook was made by Waseda University and designed to teach university students learning Japanese in Japan so I suppose colloquial grammar is more necessary in that case? Other books like the Shadowing Japanese series focus entirely on spoken Japanese examples so you pretty much only get colloquial grammar. I know these kinds of contractions come up in JLPT too so if you study from some JLPT grammar books (I think you said you were going to Jembru?) you should definitely come across some of them. Probably though it would be better to get a Japanese grammar dictionary. I have どんなときどう使う日本語表現文型辞典, although at around 500 pages it definitely doesn't count as a thin little pocket book... It is very thorough though. For example this is the entry for なんて. なんて 【～という事実は／～ということはI had no idea!】1級 ①小林さんが竹内さんのお姉さんだなんて！前から二人とは仲のいい友だちだったのに、知らなかった。 ②信じられないなあ！わたしがT大学に入学できたなんて。 ③子どもの遊相手もロボットがやってくれるなんて！ 普通形 ＋ なんて １）「～なんて、…」の形で、予想していなかった事実を見たり聞いたりしたときの驚きや感慨を言うときの表現。「～」で知ったことについて言い、「…」で驚きなどを表現する。 ２）話し言葉ば。 ３）②は倒置ちの言い方。③のように後半を省略した言い方もある。 ４）書き言葉ばでは「とは」を使う。 【参】とは〈驚き〉 １）Disbelief or deep emotion about unexpected fact seen or heard. Fact precedes pattern; expression of surprise follows. ２）Spoken form. ３）Sentence ② is inverted. Sometimes latter half is omitted, as in sentence ③. ４）In written form, takes とは. See entry とは〈驚き〉 |
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Post by chocopie on Mar 23, 2014 19:55:14 GMT
I remembered a story! I had a teacher who told me that I should write さびしい and only use さみしい in speech. Now that I've finally looked it up in a dictionary it seems that さみしい is an 音変化 (sound shift?) of さびしい and さびしい is still the official standard version. So I guess it's like られる and れる.
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Post by Jembru on Mar 25, 2014 20:05:18 GMT
Woah Chocopie, thanks for the book recommendations. I'll definitely make a note of those and see what I can get when I'm in London. Is the shadowing series as in, the speaking practice 'shadowing'? If so, I'm a massive fan of this method. I first learnt about it when teaching English, because some of my students would mouth along with me when I was speaking and I wondered why. In fact, I even mention this in an article I'm working on and by coincidence, I happened to make shadowing my study aim for this week. Of course, if the books are about something else, this all makes no sense, lol.
Okay, here are two more;
～たがる
I have a theory on this one, but it's only a theory. So, we're told that when talking about a third person, the ～たい form becomes ～たがる. However, I have heard the tai form used countless times for talking about people not present in the conversation. My theory, is that maybe it is used in general statements. So for example, '子供は甘い物を食べたい。’'kids want to eat sweet things' (kids generally like sweet things), but 'ジュンコちゃんはピザを食べたがってる’Junko wants pizza' (she's not here just now, but I happen to know she said she wants pizza tonight).
When I look up example sentences on jisho,org, I find things like
彼は病院で働きたい, but I guess you could say this supports my theory because he wants to work in a hospital in general, not as in he's bored just now so thinks he'll go work in a hospital for the evening. The first example of 'たがる' I found on the list was 彼はまだ来たがっている, which could arguably be talking about a specific event as in 'to the party we're currently at'. I could just be trying to find reason where there is none however. ^^
することができる
I learnt beginners grammar from the Japanese for Busy People series. In book II we are told that ことができる does not follow する verbs, because できる already is the potential form of する (and come to think of it, we definitely don't say things like '日本語が話せることができる', do we?). However, as time went on, I started to notice this form pop up here and there. At first, I thought it mainly occurred after suru when it wasn't specifically making a verb from a noun.. so for example after listing verbs in the '～たり' form, you often (or I should say, correctly, but it's often left out) end with する. So when giving examples of things you are able to do, you can follow this する with ことができる. An example of this even appears in JBPII or III, although they make no mention of why the rule they told the reader earlier, suddenly doesn't apply. I just had to come to this conclusion from context.
As time went on however, I started to notice this form even when it is a regular する verb. An example even appears in 'Common Japanese Collocations' and I trust anything by Kakuko Shoji. I love her books! So it definitely seems that the 'ことができる doesn't follow する' rule, is a big fat pack of lies!
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Post by chocopie on Mar 25, 2014 20:41:25 GMT
The Shadowing Japanese books are indeed for practising Shadowing. There are two books: Beginner to Intermediate, and Intermediate to Advanced. It looks like JP books has the second book in stock at the moment. They're short conversations on CD with scripts in the book. They have colloquial Japanese explanations at the end of each chapter as well and are seriously good for practising intonation and also how to say 'everyday general life' things. For example from the first book: A: あ、くつひも、ほどけてるよ。 A: Your shoelaces are untied. B：あれ？さっきっ結んだのに。 B: What! I Just tied them! A：あ、えり、立ってるよ。 A: Your collar is standing up. B：あ、どうもありがとう。 B: Ah, thanks. A:な～に、その投げやりな態度！ A: What's with that careless attitude?! B:別に～。 B: Nothing... Not stuff that would come up in a textbook but useful things to know! The other grammar book is this one. |
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Post by Jembru on Apr 3, 2014 13:20:25 GMT
Hey, I have thought of another, although this was first pointed out to me by a non-native student of Japanese. I'd be interested to compare everyone else's experiences of this. I've noticed it, but not often enough to know for sure if this exists..
Counters
So, a guy I met during a joint event with the Middlesbrough Japanese group pointed out that while the Japanese have many, many counters for things, in reality, they tend not to always use them when speaking.
I remember reading in a book published in the 1980s (my first 'proper' Japanese textbook), that while you can get away with using the '~tsu' or '~ko' for counting just about anything, doing so when the thing has its own counter sounds childish.
However, this book is pretty old-fashioned now and I understand that Japanese 'norms' are changing fast. At the time it was written, using 'wo' with the potential form was considered incorrect, but the book mentioned that such use was beginning to appear. These days, I don't think speakers make any distinction between ' 漢字が読めない (kanji ga yomenai) and 漢字を読めない (kanji wo yomenai) at all, do they?
So this counter thing. Yeah, I've now noticed it a few times. I have seen a conversation between a married couple, talking about collecting stamps on a loyalty card. The wife counted the stamps with '~個' (ko) but then the husband, when making a sarcastic remark about how little a single stamp is worth, used '~枚' (mai). He was definitely talking about the stamps and not the completed card too.
On a related note, I was corrected by a Japanese friend for using '杯' (hai) to count glasses of beer. I knew 本 wouldn't cut it, because this wasn't in bottles, and as I'd recently heard someone invite out a colleage for a drink using '一杯どう'？(ippai dou?) and am pretty sure this is how I used to ask for a refill when in Japan, I thought hai was correct. I'm still sure it is. Even the expression 'カンパイ' comes from 乾杯, 'drain your glass'. Yet my friend changed what I said to 一個 (ikko). I'm not sure of the exact context but I think I'd said something like, 'how can I be drunk already, I've only had one beer!'
So I've decided that when in doubt, I'll stick to ko for everything. ^^
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Post by chocopie on Apr 3, 2014 16:37:58 GMT
A 杯（さかずき） is a sake cup so I guess that's where 乾杯, the 一杯 in inviting someone for a drink and the もう一杯 when asking for a refill comes from. I think whenever I've been out and 生ビール was ordered it was always 一つ、二つ etc.
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Post by Jembru on Apr 3, 2014 23:49:19 GMT
Really? Well that just makes it worse!! Miyo changed what I said to '一個' not 一つ. Or does it make it worse? Maybe it just reinforces the point that actually, ko and tsu can substitute for just about anything, without making you sound childish.
So do you think when hai is used for inviting someone out, or when asking for a refill these are just expressions? So while it works in those contexts, using it in a general sentence like I was doing, just sounds odd? I imagine a native speaker might not have even noticed this distinction.
Hmm, well.. I suppose I don't feel too bad about it. I mean, I was wrong, but it was an educated guess at least.
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Post by chocopie on Apr 4, 2014 10:48:17 GMT
I checked the dictionary just to be sure and 'having a little alcohol' is a meaning separate from being a counter so that must the one use in inviting people for drinks.
いっ‐ぱい【一杯】
①［名］
１ 一つの杯・茶碗などに入る分量。「コップ―の水」
２ ちょっと酒を飲むこと。「帰りに―やりませんか」
３ イカ・タコや船一つ。→杯(はい)
４ 金1両。
「祝儀は女郎へ、壱分を二三十粒、宿へ三歩あるいは金―」〈浮・元禄大平記・五〉
５ 名詞の下に付き、接尾語的に用いて、限度ぎりぎりまで、の意を表す。「精―働く」「時間―考える」「腹―食べる」
②［副］
１ 一定の容器や場所などに物があふれんばかりに満ちているさま。「日が―さし込む」「部屋は来客で―になる」
２ できる限り。ありったけ。「弓を―に引き絞る」
［アクセント］①はイッパイ、②はイッパイ。
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Post by Jembru on Apr 4, 2014 15:01:53 GMT
Hey, thanks for double checking for me! It seems we'd reached the correct conclusion then.. that it's a figure of speech rather than a counter.
This just goes to illustrate why I think it's important to have native and none native japanese speakng friends. It would be hard to notice my wording was wrong unless you spoke the language natively, or near-natively. So exchanging with native speakers is great for picking up details like this. The downside is that just knowing something is wrong, doesn't necessarily mean you can explain why.. which is why fellow learners can be so valuable when it comes to breaking things down into plain English!
I'm glad I checked here. I'm on my way to meet my friends now and was going to bring this up. No need to now. This does mean that I don't have any language questions this week. That's rare for me!
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