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Post by Bokusenou on Nov 11, 2013 2:14:42 GMT
JembruYeah, I've noticed it too! It took me a lot longer to understand most Japanese media/books than to understand everyday conversation. Especially since in casual conversation they tend to drop particles, nouns, etc more and just strip a sentence down to its bare essence. Yet in movies & anime there tends to be a lot of vocabulary which is rarely used in everyday life like fantasy words. I guess that goes for some other media too, like news programs. That's really interesting. Ah, I should make a lang-8 account.^^; And then add people from the lang-8 thread in the old forum, since this one doesn't have one yet.
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Post by Jembru on Nov 12, 2013 19:35:31 GMT
So.. in order to get better at reading so I can take that damned J-CAT thing and also chat more freely on skype, I've started increasing my exposure to kanji. I'm studying from my favourite kanji book, well... sorta studying from it (I'm reading it while I'm in the bath and making up little mnemonics to help me remember the ones I don't know), and I've also moved a huge chunk of my anki cards to the kanji deck and edited out the kana. I've also added more compounds using characters I already know, but didn't know the on-yomi for.
This is helping, or seems to be, I'm actually enjoying finally being able to read words I've known phonetically for years. Sometimes though, just when I think I understand how kanji work, they throw me another curve ball..
So take this character..方 nice easy character, I've known it for years and have no trouble recognising it. I know how to read it.. kata or hou, right?
So can someone please tell me what on Earth is going on with this badboy?...
行方
I only looked it up because I keep forgetting this word and thought the kanji might help me remember it. I get 'yuku' that's fine, I hear this as an alternative to 'iku' fairly often, especially in songs (not that I listen to much Japanese music, but I hear anime theme songs quite a lot) so I have no complaints..
But 'e' REALLY?? So I check this 'easy kanji I've known for years' on jisho and in my kanji book. Do they mention 'e'? Of course they don't! So.. what...? Why??
Do I just throw this word on the 'some words just like to be awkward' pile and get over it? How many more words are going to do this to me as I get deeper into kanji? Oh and what's going on with the eggs? I mean.. so we have 卵 I like this kanji and it looks like little baby chicks in eggs.. fair enough. So then what's this thing all about -> 玉子
On the brightside, I guess looking up the kanji HAS helped this word to stick in my mind.
In case you wonder about my 'yukue' after this, I'll be lying down in a dark room for a while..
My head hurts >.<
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漢字 Kanji
Nov 12, 2013 20:40:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by Bokusenou on Nov 12, 2013 20:40:22 GMT
Yukue is ateji, like words like 大人(おとな). They had a word and picked kanji to match the meaning, even if it didn't have the right reading. I run into them every once in a while. They're kind of annoying, but I've learned to just deal with them.
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Post by Jembru on Nov 14, 2013 0:06:35 GMT
Ah yeah, I'd actually heard of ateji readings. I think I may have used this term somewhere on the old forum when talking about 可愛い (or it was on some forum anyway). I had been talking about how sometimes people use the kanji and other times they write this word in kana, but I didn't know why (I still don't, although someone did try to explain. I must have forgotten their answer) and wondered if it was something to do with it being a phonetic reading.
I didn't realise they were so common. I thought this kind of thing was confined to really common words, like 'ashita'. In fact, I found another within a matter of hours of making that ranty post: 黄昏 たそがれ. I also noticed (I've been going through my minecraft vocab), that obsidian uses 曜 I thought I was seeing things at first, as I believed this only ever appears in week day names, but when I typed it into jisho.org, sure enough, it came back as 黒曜石. The first and last kanji make perfect sence... but 曜??
Kanji is so crazy. At least I'm starting to get a little bit fond of it as I learn more. Only, oh gosh 2,000 characters to go... ^^
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Post by Jembru on Dec 17, 2013 20:59:52 GMT
I have a question, that I think Rin would be the best to answer because while I'm jumping to conclusions, she seems to have the most experience of reading.
Now that I'm learning kanji in a more deliberate way, I'm of course finding that I can read more and more of the captions on Japanese TV shows and even food lables (although for some reason, only the 'directions for use' and the warnings.. anyone else notice this while learning to read, or am I just weird?). It's made me wonder about something.
When you're reading an authentic text, do you always look up the reading of a new word, or if you can workout the meaning from the kanji, do you just keep on reading? If the latter, do you still feel that the story flows for you? You see, I'm a very slow reader, because I read outloud in my head. So, as I read, the voice in my head actually says every word and just about normal speaking speed. I've tried to learn to speed read, and I can do this, but I take in less information and always end up slowing back down to speaking speed. So, I'm worried that if I don't know, or can't remember the reading of a word, the voice in my head won't know what to say and I'll lose the flow of the story.
I'm a little way off from being able to read novels, but my kanji knowledge is really increasing quickly. I noticed the other day that my kanji deck on anki already has over 120 cards in it (although they're compounds of new kanji I've learnt, mixed with kanji I already knew, so I'm not saying I've learnt over 120 kanji in just 4 or 5 weeks). I've just already started to notice this situation.. that a word's meaning is obvious from the kanji sometimes, but the kanji used have alternative readings, so I can't say the word. I mean, if it weren't for rickshaws (人力車 jinrikisha), I'd never be able to remember the reading of 自力, as my instinct when I see that compound is to say 'jiryoku'. Only by linking this word with rickshaw with a mindmap, have I bean able to get this right, and only after it was marked as a leech twice!!
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Post by Bokusenou on Dec 17, 2013 23:13:27 GMT
When you're reading an authentic text, do you always look up the reading of a new word, or if you can workout the meaning from the kanji, do you just keep on reading? If the latter, do you still feel that the story flows for you? You see, I'm a very slow reader, because I read outloud in my head. So, as I read, the voice in my head actually says every word and just about normal speaking speed. I've tried to learn to speed read, and I can do this, but I take in less information and always end up slowing back down to speaking speed. So, I'm worried that if I don't know, or can't remember the reading of a word, the voice in my head won't know what to say and I'll lose the flow of the story. Depends. I separate texts I read for vocab-mining (usually harder texts with lots of "It would be so cool if I could say that!" type words) from texts I read for 多読 (usually texts with 1-5 unknown words per page max). Texts in the first category I read the page once leisurely, look up all the new vocab & write it into a notepad app to put into Anki, read the page again (making sure I've got the right reading for all the new words when I say it in my head), and then read it a third time as fast as I can to cement the new words more. By 20-50 pages of this I've usually learned most of the unknown words important to the story, or that the author uses a lot & might move it into the tadoku category if the new word ratio becomes low enough. For texts in the tadoku category I read normally, and only look up a word if it appears a lot, and I can't figure it out from context. I only add it to Anki if it looks useful or a cool word I want to learn. Of course, another method might work better for you, and it's good to try a lot of them, but I find it useful to have some kind of a system when reading. Hmm, I thought everyone read aloud in their head...Well it tends to happen with me when I'm reading fiction and imagine the character's voices, or when I'm reading for pleasure in general anyways. I don't see anything wrong with it. I remember the content from texts I'm reading aloud in my head better than ones which I didn't.
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漢字 Kanji
Dec 20, 2013 16:06:06 GMT
via mobile
Post by Jembru on Dec 20, 2013 16:06:06 GMT
Learning kanji has had a negative effect on my Japanese. On the whole, it has helped me. I do seem to be making up more words than I used to, but some turn out to be real.. not always with my intended meaning, but real all the same.
The problem I'm having though, is I'm remembering words by their kanji and not their phonetics, as I would have when I learnt in kana. This just came to my attention now. I'm at my mum's waiting for a package* and bored out of my mind, so I decided to make a video answering rin's question. I won't share it because I came over without washing my face or putting on makeup, due to leaving in a hurry, and my eye bags are particularly bad today. I might remake it though, to demonstrate my rehearsed and polished Japanese! We'll see.
Anyway, I decided what I'd do if I were god.. I'd first stop the recession.. I gave myself a massive pat on the head for remembering the word for recession (assuming it is 'fukeiki' otherwise I only thought I'd remembered, can't check just now). Then I wanted to say I'd try to reduce the population of the world, without anyone having to die. The only problem is I kept saying 'hitoguchi' for 'population'. Then I suddenly realised it's read 'jinko' and quit the video. I think hitoguchi is 'mouthful' isn't it?
Has anyone else had this happen? Is this something I'll always do now and then, or is it a passing phase?
*I've been here all day so thought I'd check my email again in case I had the wrong day. Turns out I got an email at 9am, telling me the package will come between 3:30 and 4:30. Lol, I'm hopeless!
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Post by Bokusenou on Dec 20, 2013 22:37:09 GMT
Jembru, That's a good sign! It means you're developing a reading intuition in Japanese. In time your guesses will become more accurate until they are correct 80-90% of the time. As a general rule, it's better to guess onyomi readings first in words with two or more kanji, unless they have kana in them (e.g 口答え vs 口答) Maybe I should have chosen an easier question...When I was studying in the Japanese language school, one of the hardest types of questions they asked were ___たらどうする? type questions, because you had to think about them, instead of just saying your favorite [blank] or things that already happened.
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漢字 Kanji
Dec 21, 2013 7:25:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by Jembru on Dec 21, 2013 7:25:09 GMT
The thing is.. 'I've known the word jinko for such a long time. It's always given in compound examples when you're learning grade 1 kanji. I just never needed to say it. I only remembered because on the 3rd time I mentioned it, my brain finally heard 'mouthfull'. Then I think I WILL answer your question, as I don't mind using theoretical statements but it IS a hard question. I've already got an answer so may as well use that, and ask something nice and easy for the next person. I will remake the video, but maybe include the audio from my unfinished run through, so people cab compare the quality. I'll try to do it today if I can find a spare 15 minutes bewteen doing the big Christmas shop, trying on the dress my mum's making me, finishing and posting my Christmas cards and sleeping for work tonight. If not, I'll do it from work, but use a blank wall behind me in case my boss ever finds the video!
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Post by Bokusenou on Dec 22, 2013 1:41:11 GMT
Well at least now you probably won't forget how to say it! For me, one good thing about mistakes is that they help me remember things better, even if it's because my mistake was usually embarrassing. Also there's always going to be a gap between someone's passive and active vocabulary. Even in English there will always be more words I know when I see them but can't think of in conversation.
Yeah, sorry, I only realized how hard it was the next day after I posted it. I think I'll stay away from asking hypotheticals from now on.
OK, can't wait to see it^^
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Post by 魔 on Dec 24, 2013 1:01:35 GMT
鬱 うつ depression.
Might be my favourite kanji, it looks nice and has a lot of strokes + I like the meaning.
Here's a video talking about breaking it down and making a mneumonic of it.
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Post by Jembru on Dec 24, 2013 4:43:07 GMT
Wow, that's a nice kanji! I wonder if that's what they use to write 憂鬱.. look it is!! I always use 落ち込む when I'm feeling down, but I might try to start using 憂鬱! Let's hope I won't need it over Christmas though!
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Post by seralt on Jan 10, 2014 14:14:50 GMT
I realize I'm posting this a few months after the fact, but I think it deserves note:
未 ≠ 末
For /mada; imada; mi-/, the upper horizontal line is shorter, while for /matsu; batsu; sue/, the upper horizontal line is longer. It's obviously a cause for confusion, even among native speakers (as a quick google search for {「未」と「末」} will confirm). でも、ちゃんと違いますので、ご注意ください!
As for a kanji that I like, I'm partial to 華
because of it's symmetry, and its polysemy. It can mean flower (はな), or noble (華族), or Chinese (中華), or beauty (華麗).
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Post by Jembru on Jan 10, 2014 20:20:09 GMT
Hey Seralt!! It's great to see you at Gaiwa! To be honest, I just guess which kanji is which from context >.< I tend to do this most of the time actually. I can't remember the thread, but somewhere on Gaiwa, I wrote a sentence almost entirely in incorrect kanji that just happen to look similar to the correct ones, to illustrate how the eye just scans the characters and (assuming you're familiar with reading them of course), doesn't necessarily notice the difference at first glance. Even if those characters are in front of me, I can't tell you which is which. I have the same problem with quite a few kanji actually. right and stone for example, look too similar to me. Also, when I see the words for particle or verb, I have to really really think to remember which is which, because the characters on the left look so similar to me. Usually, the other kanji help me to clear up the difference, but in cases like that where the right is identical, I really struggle. I am ashamed to say, but I even know those two characters well enough to hand write them from memory, which is something I can do with only a handful of kanji, and yet still to look at them, I have to pause to remember which is which.
Wait. I should really give the characters I'm talking about shouldn't I? I was trying to be lazy, sorry..
Rock: 石
right: 右
particle: 助詞
verb: 動詞
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Post by 魔 on Jan 12, 2014 0:55:56 GMT
Here's a good video talking about chinese characters.(It also has cute pictures)
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